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107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement-page-8
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8 Content If you bring a pug to your raid, they are either free DPS (if they're causing a wipe, you can kick them with no repercussions, especially if you let them know when you bring them in that you expect a certain level of performance), or a potential recruit that didn't even know they might be able to, or want to, raid. | |} ---- Then leave. Because far more people want this to change than don't. | |} ---- PUG and recruit aren't mutually exclusive. My guild pugged 5 people last night.. some of those pugs preformed well and are being aggressively pursued for membership. I am talking about the same topic. See Atrapos' post as well. | |} ---- Not a single person, EVER, was/is "threatened and afraid" of competition from people that needed content dumbed down to complete (because they couldn't even do silver dungeons, lol). But please continue on as if you know what you are talking about. This thread is turning out to be legendary with countless people that have posts like this. | |} ---- Unfortunately, we'll just have to agree to disagree here guys. I don't think that's a good practice for reasons I've stated previously, and that's fine. Everyone has their own way of conducting their raids, and if that process works for you - more power to you. At this point, though, we're arguing opinon over fact, which'll never reach a definitive end. | |} ---- Did you really think a big time company like NCSoft was going to go Big Budget on a game for 10 masochists? You want a game made by a much smaller company. They promised us nothing but Hard Raids. That's all they needed to deliver. No one showed up in WildStar hoping for a content gate. | |} ---- If you think silver is not harder and more challanging than bronze ure lols :) | |} ---- Hopefully the people who want this change and can't progress in raids don't quit. Because then everyone ends up unhappy. Fingers are crossed that won't happen. But retaining players for another month while losing players who don't like the direction would be bad for the game. I honestly think very few people will leave over this change though. | |} ---- I thought you weren't trying to lock people out of content, so I'm a little surprised that you're so upset by Carbine shifting their position to greater accessibility. | |} ---- Please point to the content that was "dumbed down"... because even the people against the change agree attunement isn't content and that it's just a "gate". | |} ---- The game was in development for 9 years. NCSoft knew exactly what they were getting. Carbine wasn't hiding anything from them, or anyone. It was never going to be a WoW-level project. If the realty of things are falling so far short of their business plan, then they gotta do what they gotta do. But a nerf-centric development approach is not what I signed up for. So why would I invest my time and stick around? WildStar was supposed to be an outpost for players who wanted an MMO again; where effort matters and is rewarded accordingly; where epics aren't lying on the ground. Instead, it's following the path of WoW just two months into launch. | |} ---- It affects my content down the road, so it is of interest to me. | |} ---- ---- You matter-of-factly can now perform at a much lower level of ability to gain access to a raid. That's they very definition of "dumbing-down." | |} ---- Powerlevelers, people who sell accounts/gold, and people who sell carries are all terrified of competition from people who can make it through any aspects of the game without them, regardless of the reasons why those people can make it through those aspects of the game without them. So it turns out that the previous post demonstrated a deeper understanding of these games than you give them credit for. Edit: changed "content" to "aspects of the game" to reflect that the same is true for any aspect of the game that others will pay to have completed for them; this is true for both actual content like a dungeon or raid, and for checklists like attunement that are not content in any meaningful way. | |} ---- This has yet to become a factual statement. | |} ---- Before you call it a loss, maybe wait and see if raid content gets affected? If it had launched this way, I don't think anyone would be complaining attunment was too easy. | |} ---- You assume that it affects your content down the road because you assume that a change in attunement requirements is unequivocally the prelude to nerfs to raids. Perhaps it will be. Perhaps it won't. Time will tell. But you are describing things that have not yet happened and are actively being rejected at present by the only people who could enact them as if they have happened already. That's hyperbole, chum. | |} ---- It's all he's got, man! Let him cling to it! | |} ---- Gaining easier access to a raid isn't nerfed raids or dungeons or adventures. Again, you are stating falsehoods as facts. | |} ---- Seriously? Nerf-centric? lol it's 1 change! I've gotta get back to work. thank you for this. | |} ---- Removing a gate = dumbed down. Removing a challenge on something because of people unable to do it and then whining about it = nerfed. However you want to view it, that's what it was. Attunement being a gate is correct. It blocks people who are not ready to raid, from raiding. For people who are ready to raid, silver dungeons were trivial. People can say all they want that a timer doesn't make the content less/more difficult. But if it wasn't more/less difficult then it wouldn't be stopping people from doing it. I honestly don't care for all of the rest of the excuses/banter going on as why they think this and why they think that. I just stated reality. Some people can see reason, and some can't. It makes no difference to me. | |} ---- ---- Wildstar was billed as having awesome, difficult, hardcore raids. It was ALSO billed as having difficult, awesome, hardcore dungeons. At no point was it billed as having to do a ridiculous, long, tedious attunement process for you to be able to do the content you want to do. Just because I CAN and HAVE done multiple silver runs of every dungeon, doesn't mean that if I want to roll an alt, or roll on a new server, that I should HAVE TO, in order to raid again. Nor does having silver dungeons being a requirement mean that everyone who is attuned to GA will be any good as a player. The only way to improve your ability to raid is to practice raiding. Preventing me from raiding merely prevents me from starting the process of learning to raid. | |} ---- What's the most likely future scenario? Nerfs to raid content to save the players they just saved, or no nerfs and they scrap the players they just saved? | |} ---- ---- Wait wait wait... there has been constructive posts in this thread ? Did 1 quest really change your gameplay to make endgame easymode ? Why does it matter if people get attuned ? Long as they don't change the raids or dungeons. If they do that.. then people have more than enough reason to get upset. | |} ---- Tedium isn't a skill check - and that is all that is being argued against. Silver medals still exist and are still just as challenging. The encounters and mechanics of this game have not changed. There is no way you can say for certain that people who can't or don't want to do silver dungeons can't perform successfully in a raid. There is also no way you can say for certain that people with silvers wont fall flat on their faces in a raid. Only raids can determine that. I don't want to do attunement for a second time (currently working on second time), or a third time, or a fourth time. | |} ---- Greater accessibility is a threat to some people on at least two fronts. 1) is the potential that more players will see content that they are seeing and, in their minds, reduce their prestige. Maybe I'd feel the same if everyone at my work drove a Jaguar. 2) is the potential for skilled players who didn't overcome the tedium of the attunement now returning to complete it and challenge fr progression team raid spots. #2 is probably the most definable - my team members are natural competitors and love that challenge, but I can see players fearing losing a progression raid spot if a lot of new people join the team because of this change. Probably alot like starting ballplayers worry when rookies make the team and join the roster then start moving up the depth chart. Some people like to compete, some don't :/ | |} ---- You don't have to do multiples of each run. You only HAD to do 1 silver run of each. If you have to clear it X amount of times on silver, I would understand. But what you are saying, is just for the sake of argument, is lazy. As far as you improving your ability to raid, there is nothing you can't learn from silver dungeons that you can learn in raids. In raids you dodge red shit, and kill content quickly/efficiently, which is exactly what silver dungeons teach. | |} ---- The players that are on-pace to have success in the raid are easily hitting silvers and golds. But the players who couldn't even hit bronze are not ready and their experience will result in feedback that could quite literally shape content to come in the future. I don't want to see that, and I don't want to see something like LFR. But I'm not so convinced we won't now, if they've shifted to "keep subscriber" over "make a great game." | |} ---- Wiping 350 times on Raid boss will be tedium for you too i guess :) so better nerf it | |} ---- Right, they didn't remove tedium - they removed the skill requirement. How can anyone that bought this game applaud that? | |} ---- No, you stated opinion. Tedium doesn't equal challenge. That is reality backed up by the huge number of people leaving. | |} ---- You cant have a great game without having a player base more than the 5% with a game like this. Post by timetravel in red Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:52 PM, said: Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise. He also post both about dungeons... and raids... have no plans to change them. | |} ---- How is it tedious to hone your skill/communication/efficiency? Especially when each dungeon should only take 2 runs, tops, to get silver. You only HAVE to reach silver in each dungeon 1 time.... ever.... which is not difficult to do in the first place. I honestly doubt a majority of the people that said they left due to attunement, actually left for that reason. But people have to express reasons and scapegoats on things they had trouble with before leaving to go back to another game they enjoy playing more.. | |} ---- Actually between being one of the main tanks for my guild and starting a second character to raid on I did have to do multiple runs of each silver run. Because "play with your guild to get silvers" right? Sorry to break it to you but someone is going to have to do the runs more than once, just because it isn't you doing them more than once at this particular time doesn't invalidate our concerns. Please - 350 wipes on a raid boss? I'm much better at the game than that, and so is my guild. Repeatedly running the same boring content (yes - 5 mans are boring to me after the 2nd time I've done them) for other people or my own alts is tedium - not progressing on a raid boss. | |} ---- Bought the game. Twice. | |} ---- Silvers weren't tedious. They were difficult. On a scale from 1-10 of content with ohmna being 10 for sake of argument. War of the Wilds/Criminals of Whitevale Gold/Malgrave - 1 Siege of Tempest Keep - 1.5 Veteran Dungeons ~ 3 Silver Dungeons ~ 5 Gold Dungeons ~ 7 X-89 ~ 5 Kuralak ~ 8 Ohmna - 10 Those damn Rhinos - 3253523 From my understanding, the other bosses hover around 7, starting them up tomorrow night. Also, if you are getting only to 24% on Kuralak at 8 egg...you have a long way to go. | |} ---- You will have to run Raids too with your guild even with full raid gear ... because you play with your guild to get them geared for 40 man raid :) And you are going to wipe on raid bosses for way longer time than on silver dungeons ... TEDIUM I SAY TEDIUM | |} ---- Yes, there have *cough cough* been constructive posts and/or discussions on this thread. It doesn't matter matter if others get attuned, this thread was geared toward discussion of what could happen in GA when it becomes "too hard". That's the whole reason I posted this thread in the first place. | |} ---- /signed. | |} ---- You're assuming they will require nerf for raids. Raiding culture is different from dungeon culture. (As I've said before) People expect deaths, wipes, hours of trying in raids. | |} ---- I answered this twice already, but I'll go ahead and answer it again: | |} ---- Umm then read the dev posts.. and you have your answers to that quest.. Here ill help you out. yes it says currently, but we have nothing else to go by.. except for pointless arguements. Recent posts by timetravel Red are his replies. Yesterday, 07:57 PM TehAcidBaron, on 12 Aug 2014 - 7:13 PM, said: TehAcidBaron, on 12 Aug 2014 - 7:13 PM, said: I can't wait. Yesterday, 03:51 PM Sephirox, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:46 PM, said: Sephirox, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:46 PM, said: The dungeons are also in a pretty good place balance-wise. No plans to change them either beyond bug-fixing and polish. Yesterday, 03:44 PM Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 2:29 PM, said: Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 2:29 PM, said: GA is in a really good place right now balance-wise. No plans to change that. Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:52 PM, said: Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise. no indication that this change will make GA easier I guess i just dont see the issue. as there isnt much to indicate a change | |} ---- Stopped reading after this. Sorry, they are tedious. That's my opinion after doing them multiple times (and would have had to do them again on an alt prior to this change - making it even more times) and you can't change that opinion. | |} ---- All I read was currently we dont have any plans to change/nerf ... Same as they currently didnt have plans to nerf attuenement few months ago :) I am just on fence if to stay or just go to another mmorpg because I purchased Wildstar mainly becase it was supposed to be hard game without any nerfs and hard access to raids. | |} ---- Is wipping on raid boss for 200+ times also tedious for you? I guess yes ... Then prepare for more tediousness ... And also .. best Wildstar guild Enigma did wipe 350 times on first boss in Datascape .. how many times you think avarage guild which could not even get attuned will wipe ? 800? 1000? And how many of these people will be willing to wipe that many times :) | |} ---- Well, yes, but all this tells us is their CURRENT plans. It doesn't tell us what they WILL plan in the plans they haven't yet planned. Ergo, doom. | |} ---- LOL, there are some religions that would love you. So you are saying that the only thing stopping you from getting silvers was that you didn't do them enough times and not because you weren't skilled enough? LOL, that is different because..."reasons?" Not sure. | |} ---- I never said there was much to indicate a change - you're talking in circles. Once again, the point of this thread was to discuss the precedent set by the nerf of the attunement, and whether or not the player base feels it will carry over into nerfing the raiding content of Wildstar. Everything in this thread has been theoretical, outside of the fact that attunement is changing - it was to provoke discussion on the precedent that I mentioned above. | |} ---- Actually, he said that he got silvers multiple times and didn't feel like jumping through that hoop again on yet another character. Reading comprehension FTW. | |} ---- I've already answered this - we wont wipe 200+ times, or 350+ times for that matter and wiping on raid bosses that are followed up by analysis and strategy discussions are not tedious to me. Silver dungeons are not hard - they are a time sink alt-killing requirement and nothing more. I never said I didn't have silvers - I said I didn't want to have to keep doing silver runs for new recruits, new players, new alts, etc. | |} ---- Tell me the reasons .. Tell me how learning boss fight for 500 times without mistakes is so much different that learning 20 times how to properly run dungeon without mistakes? | |} ---- ---- That is true, but you could have stopped doing silver runs and only recruited people that had them? Or had another group in your guild pick up the slack? Or many of other things. Or just run silvers for fun to see how fast you could do it. And if you are lucky, every once in a while you would get a gold. But I also agree with you, getting attuned on one character should have attuned you on your alts. | |} ---- Which side started calling names first? Oooooh. Right. | |} ---- And to me achieving silver medal in dungeons were not tedious either ... Who is right? Both. My mum and friends are also right, playing games are just time sinks that wastes your life. Now the attunement will become just tedious quest whithout any skill required. AWESOME :) | |} ---- Wasn't the OP about dumbing the game down for casuals? How is that not insulting the opponent's ability/skill/characteristics? | |} ---- Me personally, I only had to do one silver, for my first level 50. But now, I'm the kind of player who wants more than one level 50. I want to see what playing a ranged DPS is like. I want to see what playing a healer is like. So, I'll have to run additional silvers for them. Plus, I had to run more silvers for guildies. If you were on one of the lower pop servers, not in a top guild, you'd understand that thinking that simply completing your own personal requirements for attunement are hardly the end of the road for your entrance to a raid. And as far as improving raiding, who is being lazy in their arguments now? Yes, in both dungeons and raids, you need to do damage and stay out of red. This is reductionist, and lazy. Tell me, how does knowing how to complete STL in a timely fashion help me to learn Kuralak? It does not. How does knowing the phases of the Fire Boss in SSM help me to fight X-89? It does not. Do you know how I learn to do X-89? Practice and fight X-89. Do you know how I learn Kuralak? By practicing on (and wiping to) Kuralak. Do you see the theme here? | |} ---- ---- He should have said dumbing the game down for bads. Skilled casuals were more than capable of getting silver runs. | |} ---- I didn't "learn" the dungeons 20 times? Each person or alt that has to go through the dungeon process for silvers = 4 dungeons. 2 characters = 8 times, running 2 guildies through their silver runs now = 16 times. Tedium. If I have to do dungeons, then so be it, but I want to be able to be drunk, screwing around, inventing my own fun to overcome the boring-ness of 5 player dungeons. | |} ---- And that would have been less insulting in your mind? That's interesting. | |} ---- Not being able to find people who were already attuned 100% killed my guild on Avatus. | |} ---- ---- Yes, because if you are bad at something with no hopes of getting better, you should find something else to do. Why waste your time being bad at something? It would be like me spending my free time trying to get into the NBA. | |} ---- Well that's the problem, they don't only take two runs. They take try after try after try usually after more than half of the dungeon is clear. People don't look at it as honing skills they see it as "I've just wasted 30 minutes of my time because dipstick B decided to not pay attention to the puddle of derp on the floor. Now I have to start all over." I'd rather see a no death on bosses system. Then if some one lags, or derps the run isn't a total waste and doesn't disband. | |} ---- And I guess you will simply be fully geared and quit raid after the first clear? ummm ok. If i remember correctly, I was farming same raid for year each week in other mmorpgs ... 100 clear? 200? Who knows .. way more than some silver attunement dungeons. | |} ---- ---- I guess if the both of you find the term "casual" a derrogatory one... that's on you? And I'm not really concerned with who started calling who what - we're not in kindergarten - I was addressing the entirety of the thread's participants. | |} ---- Because I've seen and mocked these exact personalities on a half-dozen different game forums over the years. They are the reason games like this fail. They are the reason communities turn toxic. It ain't the happy, jolly casuals going about their business of enjoying themselves that start screaming doom-and-gloom threads based on nothing but hyperbole and slippery slope arguments. These personalities exist in every game forum, no matter what. And, no matter what, I always find myself arguing against their elitist drivel. | |} ---- Yeah, he and the OP are probably running around behind every post that disagrees with them, looking for a single slight and then begging for deletion. It's how those people think they're winning. | |} ---- That is yet to be determined. The inherent nature of raids are much less boring to me and worth repeating in the back of my mind. I cleared SoO in wow for about 6 weeks before I decided to suspend my subscription and play WildStar beta/retail with most of my free time. What baring does any of this even have on the attunement process or the game? I didn't play the 5 mans in WoW outside of the first week of the most recent expansion either *because I didn't have to*. | |} ---- ---- ----